Updated April 21, 2020 01:50:24

Photo: Sally McManus suggested the Government spies on her, during a Q+A appearance. (ABC)

The issues of trust in the Federal Government, refugees and the economic implications of coronavirus were prominent on an episode of Q+A dedicated to the next steps Australia can take to move through the COVID-19 crisis.

With Australia doing well in terms of cases and deaths in comparison to many other developed countries worldwide, the Government has proposed using an app to trace whether Australians come in contact with potential cases.

The Government have spoken about needing 40 per cent of Australians to use the app for it to be effective, but the idea itself has been contentious.

And it was raised on Q+A by PhD student Bernadette Highland-Wood, who said governments had misused data in the past.

"I'm concerned about the potential for government overreach in collecting data," Ms Highland-Wood said.

"There have been many examples where government has misused personal data, especially against vulnerable populations. So why should we trust the Australian Government and public health researchers with data collected from our personal mobile phones?"

The panel, consisting of ACTU secretary Sally McManus, chairman of the National COVID-19 Coordination Commission Neville Power, executive director of The Ethics Centre Simon Longstaff, economist Gigi Foster and Doherty Institute epidemiologist Jodie McVernon, were on hand to answer.

And those who did felt the Australian public were right to have concerns about how the data could potentially be used, with Mr Power leading the responses.

"I think there are genuine privacy concerns that need to be taken into account," Mr Power said.

"But I can only listen to what the Health Minister [Greg Hunt] has said today in that the app is purely there to identify people that, after someone has had the virus, that have been in close contact with them.

"That's an attempt to try and identify those people very quickly so that the virus can be eliminated as quickly as possible."

Ms McManus was more forthright with her response.

"I think it goes to a deeper issue of trust in Government," the ACTU secretary said.

"And Nev is right, if everyone downloaded the app, it would make a big difference in terms of being able to trace people if they'd come in contact with the virus. That's one way we can make sure we're not spreading it.

"On the other hand, people don't trust the Government and in Australia, that's a big problem now."

She was then cut off by host Hamish Macdonald, who asked her if she would put the app on her phone.

"As a union leader ... probably most union leaders assume the Government is spying on everything we're doing, so our phones and emails and everything," she responded.

Macdonald then asked: "You really assume the Government spies on you?"

Ms McManus replied in the affirmative.

"They do. They tap phones and do all of those things," Ms McManus said.

"Putting aside me as an individual, it would be great if it was set up so that people could trust it, maybe give the privacy concerns to people that people do trust, independent of the Government."

Mr Longstaff then weighed in and said he also felt it was necessary for the Government to assure people the app could only be used for the one specific purpose.

"Put in place the legislation, which I know the Government is thinking of, to give an absolutely fixed sunset clause," he said.

"Make sure it can only be used for the specific purpose for which it's been provided and not repurposed for any other things. The more that the Government offers that up as the way they're going to manage that, the better it will be."

Economist causes controversy

As the show moved on to the issue of the economic fallout caused by the pandemic, the economist on the panel Professor Foster provided plenty of controversy with comments she made about whether social distancing measures were of overall benefit.

Viewer Anthea Markowiak sent in a question, asking "whether saving 4 per cent [of the population], many of them elderly and sick, would be worth it, and do we need to have a more pragmatic attitude to death?".

Professor McVernon chimed in and said Australia had been spared the worst of the coronavirus impacts other countries had seen because of its efforts, but Professor Foster did not agree and suggested that shutting down businesses could be a negative despite lives currently being saved.

"What frustrates me is when people talk about the economic costs of the lockdown, they often don't think in detail in terms of counting lives as we do with the epidemiological models," Professor Foster said.

"Has anyone thought about how would you get a measure of the traded lives when we lock an economy down? What are we sacrificing in terms of lives?

"Economists have tried to do that and we try to do that in currencies like the value of a statistical life … and those quantities enable you to think about lives on one side versus lives on the other.

"If you do that kind of calculus you realise very quickly that even with a very, very extreme epidemic, in Australia, we are still potentially better off not having an economic lockdown in the first place because of the incredible effects that you see, not just in a short-run way but in many years to come."

Ms McManus hit back quickly at Ms Fosters' comments.

"We're avoiding what's happening in the UK, what's happening in the US, the idea of having our ICU's overrun and our health workers dying is the most horrible thought," she said.

But Professor Foster defended her views after that.

"In order to have a proper discussion about trade-offs, you need to think in terms of lives you're giving up."

She said the lockdown had caused "much suffering and many lives lost".

Professor Foster was then attacked by her peers on social media, with several other economists disagreeing with her claims on Twitter, especially after many had campaigned for restrictions not to be lifted too soon.

Professor of Economics at the University of Melbourne Chris Edmonds labelled Ms Foster "an embarrassment to my profession".

Professor of Economics at America's George Washington University, Steven Hamilton tweeted "I'm an economics professor, and Gigi does not speak for me".

Plight of refugees

A Kurdish refugee spoke out about the conditions for those who have left Manus Island and are currently quarantined at the Mantra hotel in Preston, just north of Melbourne.

Farhad Bandesh appeared on the show to call on the Federal Government to release the refugees into the community, which followed a plea for the same on last week's episode, when former Socceroos captain Craig Foster suggested they should be provided "with their basic human rights."

The 38-year old refugee told the ABC that his existing medical condition was worsening every day and that the environment at the hotel was "stressful".

"I and more than 60 refugees have been imprisoned for almost seven years by the Australian Government," Mr Bandesh said.

"We were transferred to Australia for medical help under the medevac bill nine months ago. We are locked up at the Mantra Hotel on the third floor.

"Every 24 hours there are around 60 staff changes, it's impossible to practice social distancing, this puts us at high risk of catching COVID-19.

"I ask the Government what are you going to do to ensure the COVID-19 won't spread to us and into the community? This is an urgent public health issue. Why can't you release us into the community and so we can stay with our families, friends and be safe?"

Both Mr Longstaff and Mr Power felt the problem was one the Government had to look at.

"The one obligation you've got as a country when somebody seeks asylum is to offer them safety," Mr Longstaff said.

"If you put people into a situation where you have reason to believe that they are unsafe because of the nature in which you're holding them, you're breaching the most fundamental obligation."

Mr Power agreed and said the Government should investigate.

"It does sound that they're being put in harm's way," he said.

"If that's the case then that needs to be investigated and the circumstances changed so they're not being exposed to greater risk."

Watch the full episode of Q+A on iview or check out the video on Facebook.

Topics: health, diseases-and-disorders, infectious-diseases-other, respiratory-diseases, government-and-politics, personal-data-collection-policy, refugees, business-economics-and-finance, australia

First posted April 21, 2020 01:16:19